Comments on: Drinking for two? http://equalwrites.org/2009/04/26/drinking-for-two/ Feminism and Gender Issues at Princeton University Fri, 02 Dec 2011 08:44:38 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.com/ By: Dan http://equalwrites.org/2009/04/26/drinking-for-two/#comment-661 Wed, 29 Apr 2009 22:56:00 +0000 http://equalwrites.org/2009/04/26/drinking-for-two#comment-661 Chloe,

Just a few points to keep in mind:

1. Not all women become experts when they become pregnant.

2. I believe the well-being of another person besides her is involved in this situation. I wouldn’t want to serve her alcohol for much the same reason that I wouldn’t want to serve alcohol to a small child, or to someone who clearly intended to give the drink to a small child.

3. I don’t think we know that the person writing the question wasn’t a woman. This is not particularly relevant, except for the fact that you have repeatedly referred to this person as a man.

]]> By: Chloe http://equalwrites.org/2009/04/26/drinking-for-two/#comment-654 Wed, 29 Apr 2009 04:17:00 +0000 http://equalwrites.org/2009/04/26/drinking-for-two#comment-654 @Dan:
We do all have access to the same information, about pregnancy in general. But the man writing in with this query knew nothing about this woman’s condition except that she was “visibly pregnant.” He knew nothing about the details of her pregnancy, nothing about she discussed with her doctor about alcohol consumption. That’s what I mean when I say that you really know nothing about her body or her baby. When women are pregnant, they become experts on what’s going on in their own bodies with their own personal pregnancies, which is what’s at the center of the issue here: this woman’s body, pregnant or not, is her own, and whether or not she consumes alcohol is a choice she makes, in partnership with the father and her doctor. If you believe, on a large public health scale, or as a part of your moral beliefs or your understanding of the medical literature, that it’s wrong to serve alcohol to a pregnant woman, don’t do it. But you are really in no position to tell this woman what to do with her body and her pregnancy.

]]> By: Dan http://equalwrites.org/2009/04/26/drinking-for-two/#comment-646 Wed, 29 Apr 2009 00:05:00 +0000 http://equalwrites.org/2009/04/26/drinking-for-two#comment-646 Chloe,

Can you explain your rationale for this statement:
“…especially since the pregnant woman probably knows a fair bit more about her body and her baby than he does.”

We all have access to the same information, don’t we? Being pregnant doesn’t automatically make one more knowledgeable.

Having said that though… publicly shaming anyone in this situation is probably a bad idea, simply out of concern for the person rather than a fear of appearing condescending. I would decline to serve a drink in this situation, but try to keep the verbal exchange as private as possible under the circumstances.

]]> By: Chloe http://equalwrites.org/2009/04/26/drinking-for-two/#comment-644 Tue, 28 Apr 2009 23:09:00 +0000 http://equalwrites.org/2009/04/26/drinking-for-two#comment-644 @Roscoe:
“for the past 30 years feminism has been trying to make the private sphere more public so women can get more rights and freedoms,”
Er, no. At least, not when it comes to pregnancy. When it comes to pregnancy, feminism has been about making the issue more private, so that decisions around pregnancy, instead of being made by the state, are made by the woman, and, if she chooses, the father of the child, her doctor and her spiritual adviser. So, in the above “Social Q” dilemma, unless the person is the pregnant woman’s partner, doctor or spiritual adviser, it’s really none of his business whether or not she has a drink.
If he believes, as you do, that the fetus is a person, then by all means, he should feel free not to serve the pregnant woman the drink she asks for, in much the same way as healthcare providers are allowed to opt-out of medical procedures that violate their moral or religious codes. Of course, it’s also his right to publicly shame the pregnant woman, but it does sort of make him look like a condescending idiot, especially since the pregnant woman probably knows a fair bit more about her body and her baby than he does.
If we’re going to trust women to carry tiny people around inside them – and you do indeed believe they are tiny people – and to raise them after they’re born, then we also need to trust women’s judgment to make decisions that take into account what’s best for those tiny people.

]]> By: Roscoe http://equalwrites.org/2009/04/26/drinking-for-two/#comment-636 Tue, 28 Apr 2009 19:30:00 +0000 http://equalwrites.org/2009/04/26/drinking-for-two#comment-636 But Chloe, don’t you see?

When you have people like Angela, you realize that people don’t always act with other’s best interests in mind.

SURE, I can trust Angela to make informed decisions, ABOUT HER OWN PREFERENCES, but I’ll be damned if I trust her with her baby’s preferences. And it is for this reason that smoking in bars has been outlawed, mind you: because we can’t make good decisions when taking other people into account.

Plus, what I think John is getting at is that what a man does with his own property (ie. his wife) is his own business. So, again, Angela’s logic is specious. And I won’t even get into calling the baby a crotchspawn. Sadly, what a women does to her body becomes MY business when she is harming another human being. That’s my line of thought and calling the baby a crotchspawn just to desensitize people to fetuses is working and is just disgustingly unintellectual and rhetorical.

It just really blows my mind that for the past 30 years feminism has been trying to make the private sphere more public so women can get more rights and freedoms, but as soon as they do, they do exactly what the patriarchs were doing to them. Well, if feminism ever had a leg to stand on, then my pro-life does too.

]]> By: Chloe http://equalwrites.org/2009/04/26/drinking-for-two/#comment-625 Mon, 27 Apr 2009 23:17:00 +0000 http://equalwrites.org/2009/04/26/drinking-for-two#comment-625 I think what Angela’s trying to say is that what a woman does with her own body is her own business. As such, if she requests a drink, surely she’s done what any rational human adult does when making a decision: she’s weighed the costs and benefits of having that drink – and as this article shows, those costs aren’t just the potential minimal costs to the fetus, but also the judgment and damnation she’ll have to endure. In other words, we trust women to carry the next generation in their bodies. We should probably start treating them like adults, capable of making informed decisions.

]]> By: John http://equalwrites.org/2009/04/26/drinking-for-two/#comment-623 Mon, 27 Apr 2009 21:14:00 +0000 http://equalwrites.org/2009/04/26/drinking-for-two#comment-623 @Angela
Some would say that “what happens between a man and his wife is nobody else’s business” and that if he hits her, it’s the mans choice to do what he wants with his fists, and we can assume he knows what’s what. Even if his abuse causes problems for his wife, it’s his choice and others have no grounds to moralize about his actions.

This is an argument, however, that I think most, including myself, would find horribly offensive. Unfortunately, I find that its logic bears a striking resemblance to that expressed in your comments. Having power over someone else doesn’t give you a right to abuse them, be it physically or chemically.

]]> By: Angela http://equalwrites.org/2009/04/26/drinking-for-two/#comment-620 Mon, 27 Apr 2009 19:11:00 +0000 http://equalwrites.org/2009/04/26/drinking-for-two#comment-620 I should add that what’s even more toxic about this advice columnist is his suggestion of “shaming” the woman for her choice. What happens between the mother and her crotchspawn is nobody else’s business. We need to get rid of the Patriarchal idea of public shaming, not just for this but for every social circumstance.

]]> By: Angela http://equalwrites.org/2009/04/26/drinking-for-two/#comment-619 Mon, 27 Apr 2009 19:10:00 +0000 http://equalwrites.org/2009/04/26/drinking-for-two#comment-619 Agreed. It’s the woman’s choice to do what she wants with her body, and we can assume that she knows what’s what. Even if her drinking causes problems for the baby, it’s her choice and others have no grounds to moralize about her actions.

]]>